19 | The Freedom to Choose - from punk rock to executive coaching

00:00:00: When people talk to me about being unhappy in their jobs, they usually talk about one of these four things.

00:00:07: So they talked about I hate my boss.

00:00:10: My boss sucks or...I don't like the people I work with you know?

00:00:15: Like i think they're jerks.

00:00:16: so there this and then that Or..i hate what i do!

00:00:20: I dont' like what ive actually done.

00:00:22: Or ummm....i don''t get paid well enough ,i don't have a good life balance.

00:00:29: It's one of those four things.

00:00:31: In some cases, it's a number of those.

00:00:33: for things the idea that you should have a perfect job where you have an incredible boss so Incredible Boss who like invests in You and believes in you And puts you stuff I think yeah i want That For Everybody.

00:00:48: But The Idea That You'd Have A Perfect Boss And You Would Have A Team That Enables The Best Work You've Ever Done And You Love What You Do and you get paid really, really well.

00:01:00: You earn your way into jobs like

00:01:02: that.".

00:01:28: The first time we did an English episode, this was... An Austrian guy.

00:01:32: A German guy as host and our guest was Dutch.

00:01:36: so nothing could go wrong.

00:01:39: We can just use whatever words that are appropriate.

00:01:44: This time you have a native speaker who makes me nervous but let's see how will perform.

00:01:52: I'm pretty sure it is already laughing in the background So I would say we get him on board soon.

00:02:00: But, uh...I'm fine all right?

00:02:02: Uh but i promised to have a little intro that can tell my story and share with you because probably it's well its good introduction too the topic of today.

00:02:13: Alright so last week I met my business partner.

00:02:16: his name is Thomas he from Czech Republic And besides business We often had very interesting discussions about leadership sometimes even philosophy.

00:02:28: And this time we talked about people, especially from Europe who are very unhappy with their lives and very often unhappy with jobs complaining a lot.

00:02:37: Thomas told me the story that really made my thinking a lot you know?

00:02:41: His father grew up in Czechoslovakia when he was still under a communistic regime.

00:02:48: back then for sure had a job but could not decide what kind of work they wanted to do which company or even what position he wanted to have.

00:02:57: So those decisions were made for him and when this communist regime ended in eighty nine, everything changed for him And his father became an entrepreneur.

00:03:08: He started his own company and he kept telling His son that is about same age like me.

00:03:13: so it was probably eight years When the regime ended.

00:03:19: There's something That can be very lucky because that his father did not have, namely the freedom of choice.

00:03:28: He can decide whatever he wants to do in life and if he is unhappy with this life you see?

00:03:32: If somebody's unhappy at your job... ...if we're unhappiest leaders then there has been a chance for us to change something!

00:03:39: We could choose different paths but I think all these changes are not always easy But having this freedom as a gift is really important.

00:03:50: sometimes i forget about it.

00:03:53: That was my intro.

00:03:56: Excellent introduction!

00:03:58: Yeah, I'm pretty sure that we can talk about freedom of choice with our guests today.

00:04:04: and talking about our guest...I want to take you back in history into MY history to understand why this guest is so special to me because when i as a teenager started becoming an adult punk rock and hardcore scene.

00:04:23: I was going to shows around my hometown, setting up shows by myself playing in bands or going into the places where different bands were playing.

00:04:33: of course bands from the US are always super special for us And that's when we met our guest today at first time.

00:04:41: We didn't talk about it.

00:04:42: then He was on stage.

00:04:45: he played a band called Champion.

00:04:48: At this point i'm very excited And fast forward, more than twenty years later we are both running a professional business.

00:05:00: We met other people along the way that we know from that era and when we started this podcast... ...we wanted to invite not only the typical business leaders but also invited people who have maybe different stories with different backgrounds.

00:05:21: cyclists here and today we have a former hot core punk rock hero of mine.

00:05:29: And it's, It is great pleasure to welcome Aram Erslenian.

00:05:33: hopefully I pronounce your family name correct but Welcome to the show Aaron.

00:05:37: good to have you hear.

00:05:38: Thank You both so much really appreciate it.

00:05:41: thank you Torsten for that kind words in Peter.

00:05:43: That was uh A great story.

00:05:45: Great intro.

00:05:45: yeah say thank you too.

00:05:47: Have you Here super nice To meet Your arm.

00:05:51: I need to admit, i'm not into punk rock too much listening to no effects a little bit.

00:05:55: I have friends that are really into it.

00:05:57: so let's talk about there today otherwise we'll be a little below of issue for me.

00:06:04: yeah but maybe we can start.

00:06:06: and even though I had few words already the first task is always to introduce yourself where you come from what your profession.

00:06:20: give us an insight into your life.

00:06:24: So my name is Aram Arsalanian, I am the CEO of Cadence Leadership and Communication which is a consulting firm based in Vancouver BC.

00:06:33: um i grew up in...I was born in Montreal Canada or Montreal Quebec Grew up in Calgary and went out to Vancouver BC for university.

00:06:42: And really I came under here.

00:06:44: she came out here for the Under The Guys Of Going To University Which I did but Really Why Came Out Here Was To Play hardcore and be in a bigger hardware scene.

00:06:53: And they led me to doing a bunch of stuff with music.

00:06:57: Cadence is leadership, coaching and development firm.

00:07:02: so we do three things.

00:07:04: the first thing that we do as individual team coaching for high level senior-level professionals.

00:07:13: The second thing we do is group learning so we show people how to communicate effectively had a good presentation have difficult conversation strong physical presence.

00:07:23: And then the third thing when you use assessments so would you?

00:07:28: three sixty seven in house three sixty.

00:07:30: that isn't deeply deeply based like psychological principles and it's a narrative base.

00:07:35: three sixty i'm just gonna say frankly they're like blow other three sixties out of water because It's not some like hokey, I don't know.

00:07:44: Like really corny pick one out of five thing.

00:07:46: it is all based on actual conversations with people and listening to sentence structure asking very deep specific questions.

00:07:54: so these three things together what has created cadence today?

00:07:59: the company started just me a cell phone in notebook.

00:08:02: now ten years later October or ten year anniversary excuse Ten years later, we are about to be eighteen full-time people and about thirty consultants.

00:08:12: We work all over the world.

00:08:14: Well that's a pretty impressive career I would say.

00:08:20: When you explain in last twenty years from being into punk rock To founding your own company now having twenty plus employees That is really not bad!

00:08:31: We had this same question for several of our guests And i'm always very much interested.

00:08:36: How much of that career was actually planned and how much did just happen?

00:08:42: Can you fully walk us a little bit through the journey.

00:08:47: Zero percent, it's an answer we get quite often.

00:08:54: I would say now is the first time That i've started planning out The next five ten years.

00:09:01: It always do the next right thing And I started my career as a therapist.

00:09:08: So, uh... My intention was to do addiction and mental health work for our career.

00:09:14: And so i spent ten years in the Vancouver area working with like frontline addictions and front line mental health stuff.

00:09:23: It's an incredible amazing job!

00:09:26: Never ever got burnt out on it or had any of those challenges.

00:09:29: because I'm such a believer I'd say people in that industry globally are just absolute heroes, because it is some of the most crucial work you can do and takes a great heart to be able.

00:09:46: But what got me into doing What I Do Now?

00:09:49: In those ten years i saw so many really good therapists who when they transitioned into being leaders couldn't figure out or port skills over them.

00:10:02: It was like an interesting thing because I was quite young at the time, cause i'm very lucky to start my career even when playing in these bands.

00:10:09: I always had a career um...I Was quite young.

00:10:13: so first of all is judgmental about it?

00:10:15: When someone became a therapist and went from being leader they become one of them.

00:10:22: their management.

00:10:22: now they suck They've totally lost there edge or..they're not about that work anymore.

00:10:26: I have this weird judgements about it.

00:10:28: And then as we got older i don't know like maybe it's uh something about the culture of the place that we work in or may be at something about them and maybe its something but the team.

00:10:39: But really came together when I then got my first leadership position and i stunk, i was the worst bomb down on even last year.

00:10:50: so terrible i fell into every trap that everybody i found every track you never advise a young leader not to do.

00:10:57: And then after that, I went back to just being a therapist.

00:10:59: So it was like i can't do this and terrible at this.

00:11:01: so we're back to be in.

00:11:02: the therapist ended up doing what i felt was therapeutically best work ever done for next few years.

00:11:08: before i got into what is doing so i had been very kind of like.

00:11:14: I said gone from judgmental too inquisitive to experiencing myself my own failure not and retreated back kinda got myself back together and then I went into what i do now.

00:11:29: Awesome, I want to connect a little bit our your in my history with what you are doing today?

00:11:38: And when I remember the punk rock and hardcore scene more than twenty years ago... ...and I played it in bands by myself.. ..I was never the best musician out there!

00:11:51: The good thing about Hardcore is that its not so much being the BEST musician but really you could compensate a lot by enthusiasm, passion and power.

00:12:02: By doing things on your own or yourself.

00:12:06: the whole DIY thing... That's something that is big part of what punk rock and hardcore are about!

00:12:15: Today I have to say as guest in this podcast which was an amazing experience because it was so professional.

00:12:26: you're running your business on a highly professional level, which might be bit... A different story to what hardcore is about.

00:12:37: So my question for you was how does that fit together?

00:12:44: Did you learn being professional over the last twenty or twenty-five years?

00:12:48: Was this already part of yourself twenty five years ago?

00:12:56: because let's be honest, in a professional setting.

00:12:59: Enthusiasm is a great basis but it's not enough.

00:13:03: you need to be highly professional.

00:13:05: so how does this develop from being hardcore kid punk rock kid?

00:13:10: To a highly professional entrepreneur business owner Being responsible for twenty people thirty more consultants and your network?

00:13:22: So I started playing guitar when i was fifteen I'm not much better now at fifty two than i was fifteen.

00:13:33: Same here, but when it got good over time.

00:13:43: so i never became a good guitar player by the game of songwriter and that took me a long time.

00:13:51: if wasn't like happened this point in all the success came In each of those things, I was constantly learning and figuring out what works at what doesn't.

00:13:59: But what i always did is always surrounded myself with people who were better at things that I liked... That I thought we're great!

00:14:06: So it's not that I sought the best guitar players because I knew I sucked a guitar And frankly It wasn't that I was trying to become better at guitar necessarily?

00:14:14: I wanted to write good songs.

00:14:16: so I started spending time With people who are incredible songwriters.

00:14:20: uh..I'll put a name here Peter you won't know Who this person Is but A guy named Todd Jones.

00:14:25: Todd Jones and I became friends when we were, he was still a teenager.

00:14:28: And he was already like a phenomenal songwriter and i just pay attention to what he does musically same with Eric or Aaron Critsburg.

00:14:37: from the first step...I would start spending time with people and then as I got older you know I'd get to know people like Walter from Quicksand or Gorilla Biscuits..And I just became a student of great songwriting.

00:14:47: so not being a better guitar player.

00:14:49: but What Makes A Great Song?

00:14:50: If You Listen To Like Beatles songs for example really A lot of them are very, very simple.

00:14:55: The court progressions are simple like there is simplicity as a foundation allows you to build incredible complexity and any business that starts hyper-complex right off the bat it's probably going have a lot problems.

00:15:08: so I never became good guitar player.

00:15:10: i became pretty good songwriter but then become really good organizer So getting your weird friends together once a week or twice a week for two hours not only practice but actually write songs and Not Only Write Songs like everyone has equipment And then you get t-shirts, and you go play at show.

00:15:32: that is Like A crazy amount of organization have to do let alone taking That on tour Let alone Taking that On a six Week Tour let Alone Going Starting To Play Internationally Record Records.

00:15:43: so I never became a good songwriter Or a Good Guitar Player But i Became a Pretty Good Songwriter.

00:15:49: So I learned how to Express Myself Well with Limited Tools And i became a really good organizer.

00:15:54: so when I started cadence already had a lot of the toolkit but none.

00:15:58: it was about playing guitar.

00:15:59: all that is about other stuff.

00:16:00: What are you doing this case?

00:16:03: we say playing guitar in would be the version of playing guitar and background therapy.

00:16:08: so i was able to go into coaching very successfully.

00:16:11: so in world now essentially guitar player, how do they have skills from learning how to play the punk band?

00:16:18: there's no cadence without me like slugging it out on the road for six weeks with all my like maniac friends.

00:16:24: It's how I built a business, but i didn't realize that was setting myself up to build a

00:16:28: business.".

00:16:30: That is pretty cool!

00:16:31: I liked the linked tradition from being not good guitar player and becoming the organiser or leader there.

00:16:39: obviously so much.

00:16:41: we can also learn about music as promised.

00:16:44: I have no idea about punk rock so there will be no follow-up question.

00:16:51: But I have a follow-up question on the psychology topic, because for me it was quite interesting to hear.

00:16:57: When you explained when therapists become leaders many of them are not successful?

00:17:03: You said that you tried yourself and it was very difficult... ...I also ended up as leader in every single trap that is existing.. ..and i became a leader first!

00:17:14: And then I started not psychology but systemic coaching and organizational development.

00:17:20: And during the study, I learned a lot but i learned it in hindsight.

00:17:24: You know?

00:17:26: For you...I mean you studied psychology and obviously leadership, psychology.

00:17:29: there are lots of links But how much did it help to become leader yourself?

00:17:37: What else do basically need to learn that is not in books or theory.

00:17:41: Is there anything can share with us?

00:17:46: Yeah So The thing made me not a good leader, is my own perfectionistic fear of failure got in the way.

00:18:00: And really the core of it is that work became about me not failing rather than about the work.

00:18:08: and I'll give you an example as a therapist especially addiction work.

00:18:13: if you view yourself as the solution to someone's problem You have already done them Because it's not about you.

00:18:21: It's about them and it's about their path.

00:18:23: And if you think oh, I'm gonna meet this client and they are going to stop using drugs or They're going to reconnect with our kids Or there going to be able to like live a healthier happier and healthy life because of the work?

00:18:37: I am doing You don't do totally done in The way should always think about.

00:18:41: is anyone's journey to wherever they want to go Like whatever his fulfillment for them Is A Journey Of A Thousand Miles.

00:18:49: And as a therapist, you are honored to be able to walk with someone for a portion of that and recognizing the destination they're going get.

00:18:57: You almost certainly will not be there...you won't at finish line for them.

00:19:02: Instead my job is help them progress from step two hundred sixty five to step four hundred thirty nine.

00:19:11: I have been content just being part of it.

00:19:15: That's discipline.

00:19:16: It'a real discipline where pull your ego out And you also have to pull your ego out saying it's like, well I want this person be happy and i want This Person To Be Healthy.

00:19:25: Here is what I think will do that for them?

00:19:27: That's terrible because again It's very vulnerable when people come for therapy.

00:19:32: You really need people where they are at totally accept.

00:19:36: its not about What I Want For Them Its About What They Discover They Want From Themselves.

00:19:42: So It Is A Very Paced Very Diligent Work.

00:19:45: Being a Leader Is Different As We Know Because Responsibilities, you have things to get done.

00:19:50: You build a team and create like functional system but the core of it is if you put your ego in and become afraid of failing then decisions will be based on fear-based reactions not going empower people micromanage insecure all those things are what happened.

00:20:07: so when he said earlier why I saw so many therapists fail, and why I failed is because you've got all this deep understanding of how to work with individuals or in groups.

00:20:18: And be very paced and very diligent and not worry too much about the ultimate end result but just always look for progress.

00:20:26: when ego kicks in at least from me it overwrote that logic and we have to get this thing done then i become totally fixated on

00:20:37: it.".

00:20:38: That was so afraid of failing.

00:20:41: it was the first thing i'd ever really failed in my life is my first leadership job and not only did I eat, I ate it.

00:20:51: I didn't get fired but like I definitely was like I suck at this terrible!

00:20:56: I was on tour with The First Step.

00:20:58: we were in Spain.

00:21:00: We just played an incredible show in Barcelona.

00:21:03: It's amazing And Im sitting there playing thinking about work.

00:21:07: how unhappy am.

00:21:08: what a shit job im doing.

00:21:12: preoccupied not in the moment.

00:21:14: I went home that night sent my boss an email and quit because i was doing so bad but That set me up to do this.

00:21:21: And, uh...I don't believe everyone has some big dramatic failure.

00:21:25: The way im talking about it is probably more dramatic than It Is But for Me thats what i needed To be like..i love My Ego.

00:21:30: Get In The Way.

00:21:34: Yeah i guess ego is something that can really jeopardize your work as a leader and you just mentioned its Not Your Job too to solve the problems of your employees.

00:21:51: But again, I mean you're responsible for a whole business or part-of-the-business so that's simply not... It doesn't mean that you have to be solution provider too because then it really puts into incredible pressure and I guess the leader has completely different role as we just mentioned And also in our life, I mean we never know what happens to other people.

00:22:20: In the company you have support them for a certain period of their lives.

00:22:27: maybe they will stay with the company very long but may be leave and so it's better see that way okay?

00:22:34: It is my job to develop them at some point.

00:22:38: then let us see how this works.

00:22:42: Totally!

00:22:42: Let me ask both questions.

00:22:45: So Peter, you have your own consultancy right?

00:22:49: Yeah.

00:22:49: Right Okay so are you for all the people you consult with...for their businesses or things they do?

00:22:57: Are you an expert in everything that they do and their jobs?

00:23:02: No absolutely not.

00:23:05: but okay continue please.

00:23:07: Okay Torsten could go into your company and manufacture something from start to finish Eighty percent of the jobs which are done in the company.

00:23:19: I have no clue about it, okay?

00:23:24: When ego gets involved And and if i don't want to see people should be eageless because that's crazy too like That's a totally different thing.

00:23:31: but when our own fear or perfectionism Or anxiety or any these things get involved We start thinking we know how to do things that we don't know How To Do.

00:23:42: So, I talk about this scale.

00:23:44: It's just like a made-up scale i have which is the pragmatist visionary scale and what you'd imagine so like a line like this in one end as a pragmatists.

00:23:52: of those are people who know how to do things get things done and visionaries or people that think about things.

00:23:58: if they click right in the middle.

00:24:00: someone was equally visionary equally pragmatic.

00:24:03: I always think the best leaders like a senior level leader are people who were one degree off of that, so they're really visionary.

00:24:10: They can make pretty good ideas but also do most stuff in their company and then people would be on the pragmatic scale.

00:24:23: as you get further into business.

00:24:27: You can't do all of the things so you end up by nature going with position to see become actually a little bit less pragmatic, but you don't know because you don' t have to do.

00:24:35: To most stuff and then you surround yourself with more pragmatist.

00:24:39: what we could never do is go all the way to the visionary side cause all the weight division inside.

00:24:43: it's like I think about this crazy stuff that i dont how to do any of those things terrible.

00:24:49: want to be able your feet On the ground to a certain degree as leader and do you know how to get your hands dirty.

00:24:55: Get stuff done but never go all the way to the visionary side because the complete visionary side i have found.

00:25:01: psychologically ego gets in play.

00:25:03: people minimize, how much work it takes to get things done and they minimized expertise involved start thinking everything is easy when everything's hyper complex.

00:25:13: like every thing is hyper complex even think of them most basic job its hyper complex.

00:25:19: so When people become too visionary not only do they fail to realize how complex things are and They start thinking everything's easy, it should be done in super quick time But they also have become detached from the human experience of doing Things.

00:25:34: so It's important.

00:25:35: To know like where you kind of fall on an idea Like this.

00:25:38: like for me I'm kinda like a position probably at This point up more like a Position two Visionary or i can think really Really big?

00:25:45: I Know How to coach I know how to facilitate But I don't know how to do marketing or any of the other stuff that our company does.

00:26:14: everything, no matter what level it is.

00:26:19: It's always hard to do...it has its own

00:26:21: complexities.".

00:26:25: Very helpful picture I have to say and we all know people who are one hundred percent on the visionary side where every organization will struggle to understand them.

00:26:46: Bird view, okay.

00:26:47: It looks super easy and I like your idea but there's complexity involved.

00:26:51: so having at least one foot on the ground is absolutely important.

00:26:56: to have a full degree in that.

00:27:00: To go to Peter for your consultancy let me relate it.

00:27:04: playing in a punk band as Torsten started with... like really bad, it's embarrassing how mad i am now.

00:27:13: At least you can play guitar!

00:27:14: I'm just the stupid bass player...I cannot handle four strings and not capable of handling six strings.

00:27:21: It is even worse?

00:27:22: I don't use other two strings because might as well just play bass.

00:27:28: So..i suck at guitar but always surrounded myself with good musicians And....i knew to lead a band and then work on record label and write songs.

00:27:38: playing guitar was Not the most minor part of it, but it was the part that required a less skill.

00:27:44: The least scale for me.

00:27:45: I had to know how to like orchestrate things.

00:27:46: and How do you build connections?

00:27:48: So consultancy Like if i go and consult For someone.

00:27:52: That's a technology company And they're super high-level engineers who are building let say medical Technology...I don't even Know what They Do!

00:28:00: I have no idea.

00:28:01: But I really understand.

00:28:03: Leadership..I Understand Company Culture.

00:28:05: So Leaders Don't Need To Understand.

00:28:09: They don't have to have a great depth of understanding about the pragmatic stuff, what people do.

00:28:15: they need enough of an understand that can be in the mix but really needs to understand leadership and culture.

00:28:22: so you want a good consultant does not have to have the pragmatic sides of what someone's doing, but they have all the pragmatic side like understanding leadership and culture or your consultancy.

00:28:34: So being an expert in what you're team doesn't necessarily be an expert leader is?

00:28:39: Yep I fully agree there are lots similarities between a leader as well as a consultant because i fully agree You don't need to be experts for everything.

00:28:52: it isn't even possible As a consultant, if I'm working with the company and deep technology.

00:28:59: If i come there to explain them how they do their job for sure we're going to fail.

00:29:03: but it's same as leader that have employees who are strong on technical level And if you can't even tell me about doing your job at this technical level long term its not gonna work.

00:29:15: But if I am able to orchestrate my team or people That is skilled the freedom to do their job that I'm going to be successful.

00:29:28: Thank you.

00:29:29: All right, let me tell your story how we started or why I approached Peter about one and a half years ago this podcast idea because it was one of those silly ideas.

00:29:49: Two times per year, I take a break.

00:29:51: A bit longer one during summer and doing winter is the same as we all do.

00:29:56: And besides doing something completely different that always takes my time to reflect on what was happening in the last six months?

00:30:05: What came into mind right before I approached Peter about this idea of sitting at my desk with a blank sheet paper in front me writing down names which I've met during my career, former colleagues business partners customers people who stood out.

00:30:30: People who somehow inspired me.

00:30:32: and there were the names.

00:30:32: first it was very easy for me to write down five six seven names And then i started thinking about okay why is this name so important?

00:30:39: For Me what made This person So Important?

00:30:44: What did I learn?

00:30:46: how Did this Person inspire me?

00:30:50: and that was something which I told Peter when i have years ago said well come on let's Let's do some something about leadership.

00:30:57: We both know it's important.

00:30:58: we both learn from people around us, then you've also mentioned okay?

00:31:02: You've learned for people who were better than you And I think that's highly valuable entirely an highly important that your reach out for That he look out for who is better than I am because if you learn from those people.

00:31:15: um That's my question to you.

00:31:18: Do you remember the persons, the colleagues?

00:31:23: The business partners and friends which inspired along their way in?

00:31:28: what did you learn from

00:31:29: them?".

00:31:29: I'm pretty sure that two or three have really changed your view on different things.

00:31:36: Yeah it is a great question going back to that idea.

00:31:40: if you want be good at something surround yourself with people who are than you.

00:31:45: Way better, so much better that your intimidated by

00:31:48: it.".

00:31:49: I just want to tuck into an idea here but i think is super important.

00:31:54: there's a difference between feeling intimidated versus someone acting intimidating.

00:31:59: those are two different things.

00:32:02: So for example like um...I mentioned Todd Jones earlier.

00:32:06: uh who plays in this incredible band called Nails and one of the most important bands my life at.

00:32:11: Band Called Carry On.

00:32:12: Todd Jones was And he was in terror and all these incredible bands.

00:32:16: Todd Jones is like a gifted musician, a phenomenal songwriter.

00:32:22: The times that I've been in the room with Todd and we're both playing guitar...I'm intimidated!

00:32:27: I'm scared because he's so good i'm embarrassed to play in front of him.

00:32:32: ...and I get nervous, nervous....like a little teenager.

00:32:34: nervous That's good.

00:32:39: You should seek people out who give you that kind of like nervous feeling.

00:32:43: Like I'm nervous to say something.

00:32:44: and for this person, I don't want to look foolish But then take that leap and say something And learn and observe them.

00:32:50: be a real student of them.

00:32:52: If you go do it jiu-jitsu gym.

00:32:54: our eight year old child is Jiu-Jitsu.

00:32:57: When i go there these people are all purple belts.

00:33:00: they're serious athletes.

00:33:03: I want someone of that level to teach my daughter, and their expertise is not just in jujitsu.

00:33:09: It's about getting people who are novices to roll with

00:33:12: them.".

00:33:13: Right, so it's not just about knowing how to do jiu-jitsu.

00:33:15: It's knowing How to encourage people to be brave enough To step on the mat with you enroll and learn And you should learn from a master.

00:33:22: but that should Be kind of scary because they're like oh I'm up with this person So that's.

00:33:26: it's okay?

00:33:27: To be intimidated by someone But it's never ok for people to act intimidating.

00:33:31: so acting intimidating is being like derogatory Like cruel dismissive Of people speaking down to people yelling at People being sexist or racist or any of those things.

00:33:40: Acting intimidating is something that as leaders we got to like step into.

00:33:44: We have to eradicate, we need a push hard on and people move past.

00:33:50: but when people say oh so-and-so intimidates me I'm always like well did they act intimidating?

00:33:55: or are you intimidated because there's good at something?

00:33:58: it makes you nervous?

00:33:59: And i think the first one surround yourself with people who you find intimidating.

00:34:03: your nervous about As long don't act intimidating!

00:34:06: I'll go.

00:34:06: answer in question now.

00:34:07: do you guys have any thoughts?

00:34:12: And it's super cool because also for me there is people where I really learned a lot and especially the, let say thinking about the difference.

00:34:22: Am i intimidated?

00:34:23: Because that person is so good or does that person act intimidating as something I really appreciate.

00:34:31: Thinking back at least I'm very proud of most likely its same with you Thorsten Where we have met that grew, let's say because we've been their leaders and I know some of them they already overtook me which makes actually very proud.

00:34:49: Because look i know now twenty years They have worked for me And now there are positions that really well impressive to see.

00:35:00: That.

00:35:01: one thing that want share with you before...I'm curious about your answer, but as you mentioned this sports aspect and I have the same here.

00:35:10: My son is playing football And of course in sports You always look for a coach who's better.

00:35:20: How do you look out to the superstars?

00:35:23: To the Ronaldo's and Messi's?

00:35:26: so it's completely normal that you search For someone whose better way can learn.

00:35:35: It's interesting that sometimes in business we are afraid to meet people who were way better than We Are.

00:35:44: but it's the same story if I want to grow.

00:35:46: I mean, i still have twenty years To go with my professional life even more.

00:35:50: Hopefully I will get better and better year by Year.

00:35:54: But That means?

00:35:55: Have to look out for People Who are Great Coaches Well Way Better Than I am.

00:36:01: um I have The impression very often in our Professional Life People are afraid to show that weakness.

00:36:09: Let's put it that way and look out for different business leaders who are super experienced, way better than we are because in sports its normal.

00:36:23: Yeah!

00:36:24: And like... Who wants to go a coach?

00:36:28: Like let say you want to learn how to play basketball or do you wanna be a basketball team?

00:36:33: by people who don't take it seriously, who aren't good at like or think that they actually suck.

00:36:38: Like all of bad.

00:36:40: but what you said about the nervousness that people have uh about being around professionals so they feel oh this person's not a little bit better than me?

00:36:49: They're way better then me!

00:36:51: Okay if we pull back let's just go to the simplest thing.

00:36:55: well of course people want to be good at what they do but also people wanna.

00:37:02: So just from like a resources point of view, I can understand what people are.

00:37:05: Like well actually i kind want to be the top-of-the dog pile here because that way im safe and ive got a good job And viewing it form like a scarcity model.

00:37:14: It totally makes sense To me why people would want to Be Top Of The Pile or maybe mid pack Going From A Safety Perspective In A Scarcity Model But flip it Peter I wanna circle back to What This Story That You Led With Earlier.

00:37:29: I don't think security is about being like the big fish in a small pond, and it could be that for some people.

00:37:37: That's never been it for me.

00:37:38: I want to be able to be in the ocean and pretty confident myself And also figure out what i have to do.

00:37:44: get better and better.

00:37:45: I don't wanna be on this small pond.

00:37:47: Everyone's different so not all right or wrong.

00:37:49: What good for you.

00:37:50: But For Me...I think The challenge of Being around People who are way smarter than You at Way Better Than You but also figuring how Connect with them and learn from them.

00:38:01: And help them learn from you.

00:38:03: that's like to me.

00:38:04: That's what it's about.

00:38:05: Like, whatever the business is growing personally growing professionally they're kind of figuring out how To walk a different way and walked more confidence and Walked with more understanding Of yourself in other people?

00:38:16: That's the gig!

00:38:17: I think that's What the gig is.

00:38:18: so i'm always want to do that.

00:38:21: So peteri wanna go back to your commentary About freedom was beautiful story super cool story.

00:38:28: I want to share with you guys what i see in the work world that people struggle with and it's the idea of a perfect job.

00:38:36: So, um what do y'guys think about like four quadrant grid?

00:38:38: Like big plus sign?

00:38:40: when people talk me about being unhappy their jobs they usually talked one these things.

00:38:46: so they talk about my boss sucks or... I think they're jerks, or this and that.

00:38:56: Or...I hate what I do!

00:38:58: I don't like what i actually do.

00:39:01: Or..umm....i dont get paid well enough.

00:39:04: I don´t have a good work-life balance.

00:39:07: It's one of those four things.

00:39:09: in some cases it is the number of these four things The idea you should have perfect job where you have an incredible boss who invests in you and believes in your stuff I want that for everybody But the idea that you'd have a perfect boss, and he would have a team.

00:39:29: That enables the best work You've ever done.

00:39:31: And do love what?

00:39:32: Do and to get paid really really well.

00:39:36: You earn your way into jobs like that.

00:39:39: You don't Get A job Like That Right Off The Bat Or Very Rarely Do People.

00:39:43: You Earn Your Way Into It In.

00:39:44: The Only Way You Earned Your Way into it Is Going Into Situations That Aren'T Bad.

00:39:49: So As An Example You Might Love What You Do.

00:39:54: Love it.

00:39:54: I loved.

00:39:55: being a therapist is amazing.

00:39:57: the team my worked on was phenomenal.

00:40:00: My boss not all of them, but many of them stunk.

00:40:04: They're terrible and the pay was awful like so bad.

00:40:08: But I loved what I did And my team was great in that team helped me grow into you.

00:40:11: The best work i could ever do great?

00:40:13: I learned You know and then I went Into the world That I'm in now when I worked at someone else's shop for A long time.

00:40:19: I love What I Did my Team.

00:40:22: They're okay.

00:40:23: Let's just say they were a little bit wavery, the pay was phenomenal.

00:40:26: it was like I'd never been paid so much money in my life.

00:40:28: i was like oh my gosh this is so crazy?

00:40:31: My boss sucked but I learned a bunch and you can have a bunch of different configurations like that.

00:40:38: But the idea to get to this perfect job Is You Have To Be Willing To Say What'S The Most Important Thing For Me Out Of These Four?

00:40:45: what matters to me then?

00:40:46: what's A Secondary Concern or Third Concern?

00:40:49: go from there.

00:40:50: Getting all four of these lit up is all about playing game of chess and really surrounding yourself with the right people.

00:40:56: I'm making good diligent choices.

00:40:58: At the end of the day though, it's about freedom.

00:41:02: You have to decide what is most important to me?

00:41:05: And what does most importantly i want to love?

00:41:06: What do you?

00:41:07: that's a most important thing.

00:41:08: i'm willing To take less money.

00:41:09: i'm going to have maybe A crappy boss and i hope you don't like.

00:41:12: i hope those things aren't out there but when People say they hate their jobs and They act Like There'S not Freedom There is freedom.

00:41:20: like.

00:41:21: you can go to get another job, and I know it's hard out there And i know It's difficult But i'm not saying on Tuesday.

00:41:26: Go quit your job if You want Another Job?

00:41:28: And you're unhappy with Your Job Go To School Or Take Courses or Start Getting A Mentor.

00:41:34: We'll Get a Coach.

00:41:35: Go Do Someself Improvement.

00:41:37: Go Read some Books.

00:41:39: It's about freedom and arming yourself to get that perfect job, too.

00:41:43: Get the thing but That's a journey And it's a hard one.

00:41:45: I don't want to minimize anyone's discomfort here But like you can just sit in your own shit complain About stuff if you want something You want a job?

00:41:52: That all four of these quadrants are lit up or three Of them were the ones that matter.

00:41:56: do you then go out and do it?

00:41:57: That's what matters Mm-hmm, but also when i think that is also important to mention its It's really difficult to achieve all of those four targets.

00:42:08: And sometimes it is also about being a little bit realistic, I would say what you explained was important for me and what matters when focusing on that anyway.

00:42:19: So let me ask the question – Torsten have you ever had a terrible boss?

00:42:22: Like a really crappy one….

00:42:26: No not a crappy one but bosses where they simply did not share the same ideas and was like, yeah.

00:42:37: And you can handle this for a while but from me it is important to be at least somehow aligned with how he sees what's important and when I see that as an important... ...and i liked your idea of freedom of choice.

00:42:56: It does not mean easy or automatically need to do tomorrow.

00:43:03: But if you feel that okay, this is really the issue then.

00:43:08: You have to change it.

00:43:10: from my point of view I mean i don't want a liver and unhappy life.

00:43:14: I spend way too much time in My job.

00:43:20: yeah And you know anyone listening do this?

00:43:23: Is like oh your your minimizing you know, the struggle of people professionally?

00:43:27: No.

00:43:27: Like I'm intimately involved in this struggle with people professionally it's what i do all day every day at like very senior levels but also system levels where I end up kind of having a purview into people who are more on the front line.

00:43:40: and It is tough out there.

00:43:41: Its'a tough economy.

00:43:42: its always tough to get new jobs.

00:43:44: But really thinking about What Is Going To Make Me Feel Happy ?

00:43:49: What Is Gonna Make me feel fulfilled?

00:43:51: of these four things, which one matters?

00:43:52: first second tertiary and go from there.

00:43:55: And making choices that will get you on the path to what?

00:43:58: What do want?

00:43:59: some people can work with a boss they hate for long period time as long as I love when we do and make it paid well.

00:44:06: I can't but some people care.

00:44:08: figure out what matters make the choice is together because life is way too short to working in a job he and it's not cool, you have the freedom to choose a different path.

00:44:19: It doesn't mean that is easy but everything worth doing is hard.

00:44:25: Peter any thoughts on this?

00:44:30: I was just thinking about all of my leaders in the past...I'm lucky because I co-founded my first company almost twenty years ago so i've been very often with them.

00:44:45: I can think about one leader that was really bad because he actually just, it's not honest with me very often.

00:44:53: But at the same time there is also something important for me as i was thinking what is really important to me?

00:45:00: Is this a salary or team?

00:45:03: I simply understood... ...I cannot work with somebody who isn't even lying every night and then made me change my life almost completely.

00:45:15: And so sometimes it's, yeah you can see also in a very positive way because the story that I told you at the beginning of this podcast was about like...I know many people who are really unhappy with their jobs and not thinking which one is bad but Like if someone is telling me I'm now forty i'm forty three and forty five whatsoever but im not going to change my job.

00:45:46: It's not that bad i mean i'm complaining every day.

00:45:49: it just another twenty years until i can retire, i need this really painful two here.

00:45:55: there are so many people out their things like dad the question what could be behind them and i am pretty sure you talk too.

00:46:04: some of those people probably even had some of those people in your podcast don't know.

00:46:10: But tell us a little bit what could be behind that?

00:46:15: This is really, really good question.

00:46:17: so the idea of a perfect job and I want everyone to have a perfect shot.

00:46:23: Of course i do but it's unrealistic.

00:46:26: most People are not going To Have A Perfect Job but Most People Can Get Three These Things Lit Up For Sure Like So for example You Could Have An Incredible Boss you could have a great team and You can get paid And I've great benefits, but maybe you don't particularly love what you do.

00:46:44: It doesn't mean he hated But yeah it's fine man.

00:46:47: my boss is great.

00:46:48: i learned so much like its very Intellectually stimulating to be around this person.

00:46:51: My team is cool?

00:46:53: I got paid well or whatever the other thing.

00:46:55: He's actually pretty practical.

00:46:56: most people could have three of these things lit up Baseline two, but if you only have one of those things led up.

00:47:02: So for example let say you get paid a ton But you hate your boss.

00:47:06: You don't like what you do and, uh... Your team sucks?

00:47:10: They don't enable you to the best work.

00:47:12: That's when people make a lot of money but they're hollow inside.

00:47:16: And I've been in that experience where my first consulting gig i had.

00:47:22: I didn't like my boss.

00:47:23: My team was kind-of complex thing liked coaching, but I didn't like coaching at this company because it was kind of a weird thing.

00:47:32: But i got paid a shit ton of money way more money ever made as therapists triple the amount of money... ...but it changed me!

00:47:39: It made an unhappy person and I was the unhappiest I've been in my life working for this consulting firm.

00:47:49: Arguably should have be happiest.

00:47:50: had corner office skyscraper downtown Vancouver has incredible view I was able to travel the world and do all this stuff.

00:47:59: Got paid a ton of money, but I was like hollow inside And it was really...I was just there for how much money I made.

00:48:06: Why didn't I stay?

00:48:08: Or why did not I leave?

00:48:10: because i'm going to say that's about anyone else.

00:48:13: I don't have the courage To Do It.

00:48:14: I Didn't Have The Accountability Of Being Happy In My Own Life.

00:48:18: I felt Like I am in This Job!

00:48:21: I Am Never Gonna Find A Job I Make As Much Money as This.

00:48:25: Having this amount of money allows me to live.

00:48:26: This kind of lifestyle and as a sidebar the lifestyle is living.

00:48:30: it's totally unhappy The worst version of me that has ever been like.

00:48:34: I was super unhappy And having the money in the ability to do things didn't do anything good for me.

00:48:39: It just meant that i had, uh number at my bank account?

00:48:43: I stayed there because I didn't have the courage To change and they didn't Have the will to change.

00:48:47: I Just viewed It was like my right to just sit around and point out how everything is wrong about me, or if I were in the chair it would be all different.

00:48:58: And...I sat on shit and complained!

00:49:01: It goes down into a very basic psychological principle.

00:49:04: Individuals and systems often resist change – even changes that are good for them because they think the pain of change…is more than being the same.

00:49:16: So they view changing that's going to be way too hard way too difficult way too scary.

00:49:20: i'm gonna lose this and loose out.

00:49:22: so you got.

00:49:23: change is being more painful than the pain of their daily existence.

00:49:27: But if u take a daily system you extrapolate by twenty years.

00:49:31: there no way changes more but systems people only are fully willing to change psychologically have to get there, is actually far more than the pain to change.

00:49:46: And if you can get someone there, so that's like a lot of work I do and organizations understand... The pain is staying the same.

00:49:54: it's so monolamentally.

00:49:55: more then this pain have changed.

00:49:57: If people can adopt that they'll take the craziest leap.

00:50:01: They will do their biggest thing.

00:50:03: So when i talk about these quadrants trying break them down its like all four of those You wanna go for that?

00:50:09: That shit is gonna be painful and that's going to be hard.

00:50:12: but what you should do.

00:50:13: Go into the most difficult challenging situations learn all of things you can build your own thing earn your right in those four quadrants, earning a great job is something that i encourage people.

00:50:25: take you go to school even though this stuff you got earned by going out experiencing it making good choices and living in that change.

00:50:33: so that was the answer is that they people stand there cuz the uh... they view the pain of change as more than the pain is staying the same.

00:50:43: Excellent, all right.

00:50:45: so Torsen I didn't answer your question.

00:50:47: i'm sorry.

00:50:47: uh i'll tell you that people really stood out to me.

00:50:50: um yeah no worries we want to give room for those discussions because they are so valuable but please still wanna learn.

00:51:00: So I worked with this incredible therapist named Diane and there's an area called New Westminster which it just like a suburb Vancouver And this was my last gig as a therapist and Diane had been a therapist for, I don't know like thirty-ish years at that time.

00:51:19: She had become a therapist before.

00:51:20: you have to have a master's degree in it.

00:51:23: You could essentially when she became a therapist just be well intentioned person and then get basic training.

00:51:30: So she'd been a therapists forever And she was grandfathered into like being able to be a therapist at this place, although the rest of us all had have master's degrees.

00:51:40: She was hands down easily the best therapist I ever worked with.

00:51:44: who cares?

00:51:45: She didn't have a masters level education so you don't have piece paper on the wall but her skill-level and understanding people ability read situation through absolute roof patients kindness diligence practice.

00:52:00: I learned more from working with her for two years and i learned in all of my school education.

00:52:04: She was absolutely phenomenal, she also beefed with my boss at the time.

00:52:09: so by Boss At The Time Of My Last Therapy Gig Was Like A Painter like He Painted On The Side And he He Forced All Of Us To Put His Art In Our Offices.

00:52:26: It's Not That He wasn't a good...like..he was fine but he painted these really intense And he put one, like you would come in on the weekends and put his art in your office.

00:52:38: He'd put this painting at her office that... Oh it's a sun rising!

00:52:46: The Sun can kind of be red-ish as its rising?

00:52:48: She was like I feel like his giant Red Eyeball is always in my office staring at me the whole time.

00:52:55: Like Lord Of The Rings right?

00:52:59: That was actually the reference she made.

00:53:02: So Diane would be number one.

00:53:05: And there's a lot of people on the way, but I'm going to point out three more.

00:53:10: There's a guy named Rob Hansen.

00:53:12: Rob Hanson is senior level in sales leader and technology.

00:53:17: And Rob was the reason that I started Cadence.

00:53:21: I liked what i did.

00:53:29: I like working with people, but i didn't like the nature of this company and The way they position themselves in market.

00:53:34: it really always felt Like we were being ingenuine felt like that to me.

00:53:38: anyways i was uh working With rob hanson And we're having dinner one night with a big group Of people and he just leaned over and said Why don't you start your own company?

00:53:48: and i Was kind of taking aback.

00:53:51: and of course i'd had the fantasy of starting my own company and i was like well What do you mean?

00:53:55: he's like.

00:53:55: What you do is clearly different than what your company says it does.

00:53:59: Why don't you just start a company doing that?

00:54:02: And I was like, oh all the kind of excuses and

00:54:05: da-da-dah.".

00:54:06: He's like no go do that!

00:54:08: i'll be your first client...I will BE YOUR CLIENT if YOU DO

00:54:13: THAT!".

00:54:17: I actually should do this.

00:54:19: And it was like a really powerful moment.

00:54:20: and what i learned from Rob Hansen is, Rob Hanson Is like you know guy from the small town middle America?

00:54:27: Like grew up hunting and fishing all that kind of stuff just like a real kind of salt to the earth guy.

00:54:32: But he's really good at identifying What people should do next in their careers and he would just pick someone.

00:54:38: be like You Should Do This!

00:54:41: It's like a Johnny Apple seeded careers.

00:54:43: Like you can look back and there are going to be hundreds of people who were, I did this because Rob Hansen told me too And it really inspired me where i was don't play small Go do that thing!

00:54:54: To see someone so willingly take responsibility for helping other people Take the next step is huge thing from me Really inspiring.

00:55:04: The other two people say There's guy named Scott Patterson Who is CEO of company called First Service Holding Company U.S.. And Canadian based companies.

00:55:14: like really incredible success story.

00:55:17: You guys might have heard of Collier's International.

00:55:19: so colliers international is one company and first services their sister a company Scott Patterson, Is the best CEO I've ever worked with in?

00:55:29: The reason why he actually intimately totally knows the details of all of the businesses Like this guy's got like so many business under his portfolio He could talk about like a mid-level manager in one of these businesses, you know heartbeat while also being able to the next breath.

00:55:45: Talked about like the overall performance of all the companies and portfolio.

00:55:49: His ability his attention to detail is shocking And it always reminds me that I need to bring my A game into every single conversation with him.

00:55:58: i need To Know exactly what?

00:55:59: I'm talking About.

00:56:00: he needs to know where i'm going With that.

00:56:02: i need to have no vagueness with It because he's gonna ask a really good question afterwards.

00:56:07: And I'm gonna have to be like, all right, I need to be able to answer

00:56:10: this.".

00:56:11: He's so smart he is on it but also has been such an awesome guy and just kind of decent human being.

00:56:17: knowing that someone can be THAT smart, THAT on it!

00:56:20: But also be genuinely a good person.

00:56:22: Really set my mind in the space because i am sure we've heard about CEOs as they are all sociopaths or they're all like you know THIS OR THAT.

00:56:32: It was such a cheap way.

00:56:34: I understand why people lash on this stuff like that, but it's just weird dime store psychology.

00:56:40: It holds no water.

00:56:41: there are a percentage of CEOs like that.

00:56:44: But i'll tell you A guy likes Scott Patterson.

00:56:46: He is such decent human being and also so good professional Like I want to be around people.

00:56:53: And then the finalist is Jason Wubbs.

00:56:56: Jason Wubs as part of The Wubb family family of business people in British Columbia.

00:57:02: Their father started a company called Westland Insurance, and he took it from like just one little agency to now.

00:57:07: they're like a huge Canadian Company And the wubs are really good businesspeople.

00:57:15: I've spent a lot of time around Jason...I used to coach him when he was a CEO..and then i helped with transition from him into the new CEO....And Now I still coached the whole executive team in that company.

00:57:26: But Jay has gone on to do private equity And purchase other companies and help them grow.

00:57:32: I have watched how this guy does it, i mean This guy doesn't need to work.

00:57:35: You know he's been successful.

00:57:37: his family has been successful?

00:57:38: This guy is so invested In helping companies grow in.

00:57:42: like good things happen and the right thing happened.

00:57:46: It always gets me super fired up.

00:57:48: I was just with him The other day.

00:57:49: they get super fired because although has been part of this huge journey and you know, like already professionally.

00:57:57: And now he's kind of in the second part of his thing?

00:58:00: He still is excited about helping some small company become successful as he was for his own company many years

00:58:06: ago.".

00:58:06: It's that eternal optimism and desire to help people.

00:58:11: it just totally gets me psyched.

00:58:13: so would be those four people Diane Jason Wubbs Rob Hansen and Scott Patterson.

00:58:19: I'm pretty impressed with the list.

00:58:21: also all these experiences I think reminds us about what you said surround yourself with people that are way better than new and.

00:58:29: You can learn, you can improve.

00:58:31: that's really pretty cool around me.

00:58:34: it is nice to discuss a talk for two and i think we could listen to your stories or another hour but at the end times flying little bit.

00:58:42: so i would say let's keep one of the other questions prepared in.

00:58:46: come to our favorite question you mentioned a few time in podcast already did something Where you've been quite bad.

00:58:54: You sucked, but we want to hear one real story where you say okay this is something I can share... ...where you really fucked up.

00:59:06: so what would describe as your biggest fail?

00:59:09: This was last year.

00:59:14: So One of my failings as a person Is that If I know someone really wants to do something, i struggle sometimes with being like.

00:59:34: this is a terrible idea.

00:59:36: And if im in straight up coaching perspective no problem.

00:59:42: or it's one of my kids that can be like.

00:59:44: thats'a terrible idea.

00:59:44: don't do that but its someone who am not directly coaching and working professionally.

00:59:50: they have an idea.

00:59:51: I don't think you should do that.

01:00:12: I just understood the psychology of that group they're dealing with in this situation.

01:00:24: And, i didn't want to say no to them but knew it wasn't going work.

01:00:28: so not only did this wonderful person like trust me enough to do thing then went and did a shit job was terrible because i didn t believe in things And in literally real time, I knew what was doing the wrong thing.

01:00:55: and it's because i couldn't say no to this person.

01:01:13: I spoke with this person and they apologized to me, And i was like no.

01:01:22: No know?

01:01:23: I apologize To you.

01:01:24: This is my fault You trust Me and i didn't do the right things here.

01:01:28: We have a better working relationship as A result because Like i owned it i took accountability for It and we're still Working together.

01:01:34: actually where we just did another session and it Was phenomenal really Really good.

01:01:40: but one of The things that i learned Is like i cannot let My own discomfort With hurting someone's feelings Keep me from helping the right thing happen.

01:01:48: and that was like just literally months ago.

01:01:50: That happened Excellent, so basically they're reason why we ask this question.

01:02:00: because with each and every Failure would eat it every mistake you learn or at least you have the ability of a chance to learn something really valuable about your organization about yourself And I think that's um let's agree learning.

01:02:17: I also recently text-messaged a CEO, uh...a song from Spotify by mistake.

01:02:23: It was there is this Canadian rap metal band called Ragged Death.

01:02:28: Ragged death?

01:02:29: The ragged death!

01:02:31: It's just like the canadian thing in the early either of late nineties or the early two thousands and my group of friends were talking about raggedeth And iIwaslike.

01:02:39: oh andi went to go send the before the raggedith a raggedoth song to our friend of mine company and they were like, what the hell is this?

01:02:49: That happened two months ago.

01:02:51: Yeah!

01:02:53: You're still working with those guys?

01:02:54: Oh yeah it was a great story.

01:02:58: Okay I have to admit same as Peter just said.

01:03:03: well i love to talk to you for another hour.

01:03:06: maybe we need to invite your second time but trying I mean we already failed to stay below our one hour benchmark, but i think there was enough valuable input.

01:03:23: But i'd like to combine this last question with something we had on our list before.

01:03:28: after the biggest fail that's always the question of the biggest success?

01:03:34: Maybe before you can tell us okay where are you super proud of yourself?

01:03:38: what would you define as your biggest success in your professional career?

01:03:43: maybe just let What does success mean to you?

01:03:47: Because that's a very individual question.

01:03:51: I mean, in the company setting it can mail down two business figures or whatever.

01:03:58: something they share hold is defined as a success.

01:04:02: what success for you and where do you see your biggest success in your career The biggest success of my career?

01:04:09: this easier one answer Is i get too work with my wife every day and we get to travel together for work.

01:04:18: I don't go anywhere, all right?

01:04:20: My wife and i go everywhere together for a week.

01:04:22: she's the chief of staff at our company And...my biggest success is not sacrificing family time uh-time with my Wife & Time With Our Kids because two kids working in the company The third one still very young Plugged in family life, and that is like for me the biggest success.

01:04:43: I love my wife.

01:04:44: She's my absolute best friend.

01:04:46: i get to go everywhere with her And that to me Is super important so?

01:04:51: That's my biggest success was building the business in a way that allows that.

01:04:56: So what does success look from?

01:04:58: ei don't want to sound grandiose but it's pretty practical.

01:05:03: What do you mean by this?

01:05:06: For some of these successes increasing empowerment while reducing suffering And suffering, it sounds like grandiose.

01:05:13: Like oh my gosh.

01:05:13: but I just wanted to think if someone works at a job that sucks they're suffering.

01:05:18: If someone can't communicate well and want to communicate their ideas They are suffering.

01:05:25: The idea is work is such an profound part of our life And I just want to reduce suffering for people.

01:05:42: and whether that's like showing someone, hey here is how you answer a question better.

01:05:47: Or heres'how can help yourself be heard or heres', how do push back against negative culture?

01:05:52: Amazing!

01:05:52: That to me is reducing the cause of suffering.

01:05:55: but i also wanna increase empowerment in what I mean by that.

01:05:57: it really good coach should never create forever situations.

01:06:02: You should always get so good at teaching people things they themselves could become teachers And so I want to empower people to feel like they could go out and do a version of what i Do or teach your version Of What I Teach Or Like.

01:06:14: Take These Ideas, and Put Them in Play.

01:06:17: So If Im Increasing Empowerment and Reducing Suffering Then I'm Being Successful at What I'm Doing.

01:06:25: Impressive Answer Thank You Alright Pretty Cool Conversation.

01:06:33: I Would Say In So Much I Have Learned.

01:06:36: Well Aram Thanks A Lot For Being Here.

01:06:40: Yeah Before Saying thank you First of all, Peter you're absolutely right.

01:06:45: I've learned so many things during this last sixty minutes and i'm super happy that we try to reconnect my past life with our current setting.

01:06:58: And um That's what I like with the in control podcast and it has proven Again today.

01:07:05: I learn with each and every episode.

01:07:07: So Aram thank you very much for being here sharing your view and your experience with us.

01:07:15: Thanks a lot!

01:07:16: Okay, thanks to both of you.

01:07:19: like the idea of podcasting.

01:07:22: this is the thing... Like we all didn't go to broadcasting school and learn how to be interviewers or doing these things.

01:07:31: it's just like hey let's do this thing.

01:07:33: yeah get people talking share ideas poke holes in each other's.

01:07:38: Nothing is cool unless people come together and make it cool.

01:07:42: And you make things cool through conversation, like Jiu-Jitsu getting people on the mat rustling around with ideas The more your willing to do that.

01:07:50: enter the fray be in the conversation feel a little scared but then learn how To Do It.

01:07:54: Well That's How You Make Things Better and nothing gets better if we all just hide In Our Corners and think We're Right or Think That You Know Like Nobody Gets Us.

01:08:02: He Gotta Be in the Fright.

01:08:03: so gents I really appreciate that you do this and thank you for inviting me.

01:08:07: alright Thanks a lot.

01:08:09: Nice summary of our DIY project person, right?

01:08:13: Really yeah and never thought about it from that perspective.

01:08:17: thanks a lot.

01:08:17: hey talk to you soon all right.

01:08:19: take care guys bye-bye.